Comments on: What to Do When the Issue is Not the Issue http://godhungry.org/2009/12/30/learning-to-listen-beneath-the-words/ Attempting to connect life to what matters most Wed, 23 May 2012 03:39:25 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Jim Martin http://godhungry.org/2009/12/30/learning-to-listen-beneath-the-words/comment-page-1/#comment-9120 Jim Martin Wed, 06 Jan 2010 20:58:51 +0000 http://godhungry.org/?p=3298#comment-9120 Tim, thanks for a very fine and thoughtful comment. You make some very good points. I certainly would not be sympathetic to any kind of ministry that invites the patronizing of believers. So, thanks for stressing this. At the same time, I really do think there is something to be said for the image of poet as a way to handle Scripture and look beyond the surface of the words that are spoken. That ability is certainly not limited to seminary trained ministers (though it would certainly be helpful) but might be useful for all in the body of Christ. Tim, thanks for a very fine and thoughtful comment. You make some very good points. I certainly would not be sympathetic to any kind of ministry that invites the patronizing of believers. So, thanks for stressing this. At the same time, I really do think there is something to be said for the image of poet as a way to handle Scripture and look beyond the surface of the words that are spoken. That ability is certainly not limited to seminary trained ministers (though it would certainly be helpful) but might be useful for all in the body of Christ.

]]> By: Tim http://godhungry.org/2009/12/30/learning-to-listen-beneath-the-words/comment-page-1/#comment-9119 Tim Mon, 04 Jan 2010 00:42:29 +0000 http://godhungry.org/?p=3298#comment-9119 An example of "when the issue is not the issue" is found in M. Craig Barnes own words. "This is how I learned to think poetically about my work and myself…in order to enter the deeper realm where theology makes sense. Only then could I speak to the soul of the congregation…" Having read many of his articles in Leadership Journal over many years, and having responded to several quotes out of this very book about hired Pastors learning to be some sort of spiritual lead poet for the congregation, I know he speaks out of an orientation to pastoring that is loaded with patronizing-expert-higher-calling dynamics that are completely foreign to the NT description of low-position servant leadership dynamic. His whole approach to pastoring is not even the real issue that God has designed for him or anyone else who seeks to be a shepherd. He has taken this undershepherd-just-below-the-chief-shepherd approach handed down to us through many generations of institutionalized forms and added even more nuance and poetry to it. If he understood what is plainly written in simple language from God to His people about shepherding, he would not write the way he does. I know there are lots of men out there who love to play the part he lays out, and there are lots more folks who like to play the part of the always dumb, wandering, spiritually helpless sheep who just want the (Biblical) cookies put on the lower shelf for them each week. I pray for the household of faith to wake up and smell the roses of God's design for His bride. I can just see someone who loves institutionalized shepherding the way it is gasping with disbelief at the passion of my confrontation here and thinking: "wow, Tim must have some underlying bitterness or hurt from some pastor in his life…this can't possibly be the real issue in his life..." An example of “when the issue is not the issue” is found in M. Craig Barnes own words. “This is how I learned to think poetically about my work and myself…in order to enter the deeper realm where theology makes sense. Only then could I speak to the soul of the congregation…” Having read many of his articles in Leadership Journal over many years, and having responded to several quotes out of this very book about hired Pastors learning to be some sort of spiritual lead poet for the congregation, I know he speaks out of an orientation to pastoring that is loaded with patronizing-expert-higher-calling dynamics that are completely foreign to the NT description of low-position servant leadership dynamic. His whole approach to pastoring is not even the real issue that God has designed for him or anyone else who seeks to be a shepherd. He has taken this undershepherd-just-below-the-chief-shepherd approach handed down to us through many generations of institutionalized forms and added even more nuance and poetry to it. If he understood what is plainly written in simple language from God to His people about shepherding, he would not write the way he does.

I know there are lots of men out there who love to play the part he lays out, and there are lots more folks who like to play the part of the always dumb, wandering, spiritually helpless sheep who just want the (Biblical) cookies put on the lower shelf for them each week. I pray for the household of faith to wake up and smell the roses of God’s design for His bride.

I can just see someone who loves institutionalized shepherding the way it is gasping with disbelief at the passion of my confrontation here and thinking: “wow, Tim must have some underlying bitterness or hurt from some pastor in his life…this can’t possibly be the real issue in his life…”

]]> By: Jim Martin http://godhungry.org/2009/12/30/learning-to-listen-beneath-the-words/comment-page-1/#comment-9118 Jim Martin Sat, 02 Jan 2010 19:59:08 +0000 http://godhungry.org/?p=3298#comment-9118 Karin, what a wonderful comment! And I love the quote by Buechner. Thanks for including this. Karin, what a wonderful comment! And I love the quote by Buechner. Thanks for including this.

]]> By: Karin http://godhungry.org/2009/12/30/learning-to-listen-beneath-the-words/comment-page-1/#comment-9117 Karin Sat, 02 Jan 2010 05:24:05 +0000 http://godhungry.org/?p=3298#comment-9117 Discovering what is the deeper issue in another person, means to me to put on/ask the Lord for compassion. My favorite quote on compassion is:“Compassion is sometimes the fatal capacity for feeling what it is like to live inside somebody else's skin. It is the knowledge that there can never really be any peace and joy for me until there is peace and joy finally for you too.” Frederick Buechner If I am allowed or invited in to that person's life, I support and encourage as they walk through examining their surface and deeper issues. I'm learning not only to listen to what they say, but to 'hear' what they are not saying. I'm not so good at providing that compassion and listening ear for myself when recognizing any deeper issues with which I need to deal. I've been very grateful when the Lord sends someone alongside! Discovering what is the deeper issue in another person, means to me to put on/ask the Lord for compassion. My favorite quote on compassion is:“Compassion is sometimes the fatal capacity for feeling what it is like to live inside somebody else’s skin. It is the knowledge that there can never really be any peace and joy for me until there is peace and joy finally for you too.” Frederick Buechner If I am allowed or invited in to that person’s life, I support and encourage as they walk through examining their surface and deeper issues. I’m learning not only to listen to what they say, but to ‘hear’ what they are not saying.

I’m not so good at providing that compassion and listening ear for myself when recognizing any deeper issues with which I need to deal. I’ve been very grateful when the Lord sends someone alongside!

]]> By: Jim Martin http://godhungry.org/2009/12/30/learning-to-listen-beneath-the-words/comment-page-1/#comment-9116 Jim Martin Fri, 01 Jan 2010 12:58:31 +0000 http://godhungry.org/?p=3298#comment-9116 Kevin, thanks very much. I appreciate your comment. Kevin, thanks very much. I appreciate your comment.

]]> By: Jim Martin http://godhungry.org/2009/12/30/learning-to-listen-beneath-the-words/comment-page-1/#comment-9115 Jim Martin Fri, 01 Jan 2010 12:58:03 +0000 http://godhungry.org/?p=3298#comment-9115 Arlene, You express what I was trying to say so well. You are right, it does go back to feelings/hurts/unmet expectations beneath the issue. (I would like to stop here and attempt to unpack some of this. The words you have used to describe what is beneath the issue are so important.) How wonderful that you were able to uncover this issue related to your Father's death as it relates to your own thirst for emotional intimacy. So many people live in vicious cycles of defeat through repeating destructive behaviors and yet never getting to some of the issues that are underneath it all. I look forward to seeing you at the CEA. This will be my first time there. Arlene,
You express what I was trying to say so well. You are right, it does go back to feelings/hurts/unmet expectations beneath the issue. (I would like to stop here and attempt to unpack some of this. The words you have used to describe what is beneath the issue are so important.) How wonderful that you were able to uncover this issue related to your Father’s death as it relates to your own thirst for emotional intimacy. So many people live in vicious cycles of defeat through repeating destructive behaviors and yet never getting to some of the issues that are underneath it all.

I look forward to seeing you at the CEA. This will be my first time there.

]]> By: Kevin Althaus http://godhungry.org/2009/12/30/learning-to-listen-beneath-the-words/comment-page-1/#comment-9114 Kevin Althaus Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:46:39 +0000 http://godhungry.org/?p=3298#comment-9114 I appreciate this. Great post! I appreciate this. Great post!

]]> By: Greg England http://godhungry.org/2009/12/30/learning-to-listen-beneath-the-words/comment-page-1/#comment-9113 Greg England Thu, 31 Dec 2009 07:40:49 +0000 http://godhungry.org/?p=3298#comment-9113 Years ago I was playing on our church softball team and was pulled by the coach (a man I dearly loved and respected). For reasons that floored everyone (and I was the preacher at that church), I walked off the field almost in a rage. As we drove home (the game was still being played) I refused to talk, and stayed angry for several days. Finally my wife asked on day, "What happened about this time of year in your life?" Turns out, it was the anniversary of the death of an uncle of mine who was my closest friend on earth. I was born on his 15th birthday, so we had a special bond through the years. I had a good verbal fight with God (God won) and realized all the anger had been stored for several years over God allowing Tom to die. The peace that came from that "fight" with God remains the deepest peace I've ever experienced in my life. And I apologized to my coach / friend. Years ago I was playing on our church softball team and was pulled by the coach (a man I dearly loved and respected). For reasons that floored everyone (and I was the preacher at that church), I walked off the field almost in a rage. As we drove home (the game was still being played) I refused to talk, and stayed angry for several days. Finally my wife asked on day, “What happened about this time of year in your life?” Turns out, it was the anniversary of the death of an uncle of mine who was my closest friend on earth. I was born on his 15th birthday, so we had a special bond through the years. I had a good verbal fight with God (God won) and realized all the anger had been stored for several years over God allowing Tom to die. The peace that came from that “fight” with God remains the deepest peace I’ve ever experienced in my life. And I apologized to my coach / friend.

]]> By: Arlene Kasselman http://godhungry.org/2009/12/30/learning-to-listen-beneath-the-words/comment-page-1/#comment-9112 Arlene Kasselman Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:56:44 +0000 http://godhungry.org/?p=3298#comment-9112 Jim First off I am so excited that I may get to see you at the CEA. As I think about this - almost every experience of conflict etc is "an issue is not the issue" one. It usually always goes to feelings/hurts/unmet expectations beneath the issue. At least for me! A very real example for me this past year is this. I found myself growing overly attached to a facebook relationship this past summer and realized after being concerned about the issue that I was dealing with an insatiable need for emotional intimacy. The facebook friendship was not the problem, the issue was that I uncovered some big unmet needs from a teenage version of myself that missed her Daddy not being there after he died. I have chosen to meet that need through seeking out emotional intimacy and having made that discovery I was able to handle the presenting issue. Jim
First off I am so excited that I may get to see you at the CEA.

As I think about this – almost every experience of conflict etc is “an issue is not the issue” one. It usually always goes to feelings/hurts/unmet expectations beneath the issue. At least for me!

A very real example for me this past year is this. I found myself growing overly attached to a facebook relationship this past summer and realized after being concerned about the issue that I was dealing with an insatiable need for emotional intimacy. The facebook friendship was not the problem, the issue was that I uncovered some big unmet needs from a teenage version of myself that missed her Daddy not being there after he died. I have chosen to meet that need through seeking out emotional intimacy and having made that discovery I was able to handle the presenting issue.

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